Question about Newbies to adoption-world?

Jennifer L

Well, I'll add my two cents to the list here.

1. I think that being rude, abrasive and insulting with one breath, then in the next breath say how you are here to educate reminds me of beating someone over the head with a blunt object in order to teach them that violence is bad. I don't think that it accomplishes anything towards education and probably serves to drive people away. Which is sad, because there is a lot to be learned here. Someone can still make an important point and word it in a respectful (or at least non-insulting manner) but choose not to. Trying to justify it by saying that they have to be abrasive to be heard just doesn't cut the mustard, in my book. Those people are not here to educate but to attack. Phrase something to me in a common decency sort of manner and I'll be happy to listen, even if I disagree. Attack and insult me and I am not going to waste my time.

2. Think I covered that in #1. More flies, honey, etc.

3. Yes and no. If someone's trigger button is hit and they fly off the handle, that's understandable. We're human. We have "flash points". But when there is a pattern of rude, insulting and attacking posts, yeah, I think that gives a little glimpse into the personality of the individual. Is it a complete picture of the person, of course not.

4. I think we're discussing the solicitation of adoptions on this forum. Those questions are against the rules and I feel they should be reported. But I also think that before you hit that report button, it is worth sending an email or putting up a response that explains why it's against the rules and that you are reporting it.

I don't think that people who post these questions realize how offensive and insulting it is. Agencies tell PAPs to network, ask around, talk to people and let it be known that you want to adopt. I completely agree that this sort of forum is neither the time nor place for it, but there's a better way to phrase a response (and either ask the person to delete the question or to report it) that educates rather than attacks.

ETA: I've also gotten emails through the Y/A system from people with adoption questions that don't want to ask them because they don't want to be attacked.

Heather Leigh

If someone decides against adoption because someone hurt their feelings on the internet, then they will never be able to handle parenting any child not just an adopted child.

Some of the people I have learned the most from are the ones that can be a little abrasive with their answers. I was offended at first, but then started listening to what they were really saying.

I will admit that I have given answers that were less than kind. I get very offended when someone states that they don't want to adopt an older child because they are "damaged". Since my son is one of the so called damaged ones I get mad. I also get upset when someone wants a cheap baby or complains about how long the adoption process is. But, you are right, maybe I can try to educate civilly instead of with sarcasm.

Mei-Ling

Alrighty. Let's tackle your list:

#1: I think they need to be educated. Problem is, if you're nice to someone and they don't WANT to be educated... then what?

#2: I completely agree with you. Sometimes I think people on here are too harsh. No need to dish out insults with the trigger button, people. That will NOT get people to want to listen to you. But.. isn't that 'common sense'?

#3: No. It's so easy to misinterpret the "tone" just by text alone. Sometimes sarcasm is detected correctly, othertimes it isn't and then that can cause major problems.

Number 4: STOP DELETING QUESTIONS, PEOPLE.

Number 5: Unless said questions in Number 4 are about human trafficking and deliberate marketing for babies - then yeah, I can understand that.

Still though... it'd be better to educate people about WHY it's seen as trafficking rather than tossing a few insults hitting the Report button. Sheesh.

ETA: " I think that being rude, abrasive and insulting with one breath, then in the next breath say how you are here to educate reminds me of beating someone over the head with a blunt object in order to teach them that violence is bad."

ROFL!!! Good point! @@

Carnie C

beating them over the head when they ask a sincere question (not the baby solicitations) is adverse to the cause. I'm beginning to think it's not so much education that people want to give here but rather find someone to blame for their misery. They want this to be a support group - not a knowledge seeking forum.

PhilM

So I assume this is the end of the truce that yesterday saw? We have, once more, "us versus them" thinking rife in both questions and answers here. No point in being nice when all being nice gets you is being shouted down and treated as "them." Look at the thumbs down on the relatively respectful answers on the question a few above this one about how to get started. I've had material reported and removed today. I see lots of finger-pointing here, but it just further polarizes people. If people are serious (as Carnie's question yesterday seemed to imply) about lowering the temperature in here, this question, and a number of the answers, just ramps it right back up.

Just about everybody who's been here longer than a week has engaged in bad behavior. But if you want to just point out the bad behavior of some, you continue the cycle.

Lillie

I will address #3.

I don't know, can we REALLY know someone over the internet? Because I have seen some pretty hateful spew coming from you sometimes, and I would probably bet that IRL you are not a hateful person.

What is perceived as hateful by some may be simply a person be very direct. Words on a computer monitor lack emotion, lack voice inflection, lack facial expression.

We all have different personalities and I for one am not about to become someone I am not just to appease you or anyone else. There are happy-dappy sweet people here and then there are direct, blunt, snarky people like me here. I am who I am and I am comfortable with that, and don't give a rat's *** who doesn't like it.

I would hope that everyone else is just as comfortable with who THEY are as well.

As to how it affects newbies, well, who knows? I have had quite a few people tell me privately that my direct POV has turned on a lightbulb for them. Some people actually do appreciate a little snark and a little piss and vinegar. For some people, a kick in the pants is what is needed. I'll leave the sugar and honey for those who are good at it.

Possum

It takes a lot of different ways for information to get into people's heads. Especially when that info flies in the face of everything they believe in.
Some accept change through gentle nudges.
Some only start to see the difference when they're hammered.
(some AP's here have admitted to some heavy-handed adoptees that they are now glad that they kept at them - as that's what it took)
And everything in between.
If they can't handle the heat - oh well.
No one gets paid for this.
So you can't really have any specific rules as to how it's run.
Different personalities. Different ways of communicating. Different ways of learning.
It's all part of the mix.
How about you just say your bit to the uneducated when they venture in - and everyone else will do the same thing.
This is about the ONLY place on the net where everyone gets a chance to be heard.
I don't think anything should be changed.

Erin L

I agree that abrasiveness and attacking doesn't help people become better adoptive parents, and it may send them back to the only "roses and rainbows" places where they don't learn anything. I don't think anyone owes adoptive parents education or help, but everyone should be expected to have some standards of conduct when dealing with others. I have become much less sensitive to feeling personally attacked and more interested in wondering where very real feelings of anger come from. Try to hang in there and NOT dismiss even those who throw around insults. I know it's hard.

While there are lots of things pap's say that may come from being new to adoption and not aware of certain things, human solicitation online isn't something someone should have to learn the protocol on. It's just wrong, so that is someone who I don't think can ever be "educated" enough to be an acceptable adoptive parent.

Randy B

LOL I think you had better watch it or someone will report this for being a conversation and not a question. lol

But to address it, yes, I think that many people get scared off by the lashing out around here. A lot of good people who either use the "wrong words" by someones standards or who ask the "wrong questions" by someones standards.

If you look at the big picture, many of them don't know to not use "birth parents", "bio parents", "it", "kid"...or a whole host of other words from the Oxford Concise Dictionary. They mean no harm, they just have questions.

What ever happened to the old adage that there are no "silly questions"?

I know I've received a few inquiries from people too scared to post their questions in the clear for fear of being bashed. I know of others who have received them as well. These people are too intimidated to ask questions about what can be a rather intimidating process. If you put yourself in their shoes it's a pretty overwhelming place to be in.

Many here speak of how bad their own adopted upbringing was or how they were abused in some way, either by the system or their adoptive parents. They claim to want to stop the abuses yet in their next breath they essentially abuse someone else who is only asking a question. Thats a pretty poor example to set and doesn't speak well of your efforts to "stop the cycle".

If you can't be part of the solution, don't be part of the problem.

Kazi

First and foremost, this is not a support board. Some people, on all sides of the triad, will at times react as if this place is solely for them and how can anybody be so heartless as to refute their truth. But "the truth" is that is not a place to come for 100% validation or hand holding. There are forums that exist for just that purpose. People who need that, should go there. When I want to vent or whine or look for support as an adoptive parent, then I go to my forums that are specifically created for me. This is a Q&A board. People should be able to ask whatever they want (as long as it abides by the rules - no solicitation - no name calling), however, they need to keep in mind that anybody can answer. That is their right.

That being said, I get mostly peeved at PAPs and APs who attack newbie PAPs and APs for asking a poorly worded question or for even daring to ask about IA or about good agencies or for phrasing their Q that can open to interpretation and the readers chose that interpretation to be "entitled". Until proven otherwise, I am going to give newbies the benefit of the doubt that they are being sincere and came here looking for answers. When they are attacked by PAPs and APS with "Didn't you know..." "Wake up..." "Do your research.." I just shake my head and think, how wonderful for all of you to have been born fully versed in adoption. Those people learned because someone educated them. Pay it forward. Tell them about what you know without making it sound like you are beating them over the head with a stick. You don't know what you don't know.

I don't know about you, but when someone attacks me, it has the opposite effect of what they intended. I tune them out. Yes, given some time and insightful answers, I have been able to wipe away the spew and see the value in their point of view, but I don't suffer bullies for long.

Adoption is an empassioned subject, so I think baring the claws has to be expected. You make your point. Listen to other views and incorporate them into your life and parenting if they make sense to you.

But if you allow strangers over the intenet to hurt your feelings, well, I think it's time to close the account.

:)))

furfur

1. I think if someone has misconceptions it is up to those who are educated on the topic to educate in a respectful manner. Being insulting and rude is only going to make you look like a nut case and when people have responded to me in that way, I disregard it because they must not be looking at the entire/bigger picture. If they can't have the decency to speak to me respectfully then they must not want to be heard. One personal experience is not everybody's experience.

If you were taking an adoption class would you want someone to speak to you in class the way some speak to others on here? Probably not...you would assume the teacher had some major issues, needed counseling, and may drop out.

2. In reference to the unsealed records...our lawmakers clearly need a kick in the a-- , but you can still do this respectfully.

3. Nope. You really can't know anyone. For all anyone knows, the angry adoptees are just a group of trolls that like to try to make other people miserable. (Not that I think that)

4. No. Reporting questions without reasons why will not educate anyone and leave the asker confused.

BLW_KAM

I still believe in the Golden Rule. What a place this could be if everyone remembered to "do unto others ..."

#1 - Education
#2 - Attacking will drive many away and the message will fall on deaf ears.
#3 - No, we can't.
#4 - Reporting questions, unless they are abusive or unethical, appears to be the work of person or persons who do not wish others to be heard. It's akin to book banning.

I have learned too, despite the thorns in the rose bush.

Lori A

I have never felt attacked here. I have had some heated back and forth conversations both on forum and in private and not once have I felt attacked.

Being as some have been here longer than others and they are not paid educators, try to imagine how difficult it must be to have to say the same thing over and over without showing so much as an inkling of irritation that something they have been saying forever is not yet common knowledge.

I personally am not one to learn from foo foo answers. In fact I have gotten lost in all the round about niceness and been left scratching my head at what a person might mean. I have read some answers over again and still couldn't' figure them out.

Just because someone is blunt, does not mean they are being rude. I prefer no room for interpretation in a persons answer or opinion. I don't want to have to sit down with paper and pen drawing circles and arrows trying to pin point out of 17 different possibilities what this person might have meant by what they said. It takes up too much of my time.

If I ask a question, I want an answer I understand. If that answer proves to be that this person clearly has issues with this subject then I am happy to know that. Honestly they have my attention. I now want to know why they have issues, what issues they have, what they think would be a solution. I have gotten more out of those people than anyone else around here. Their alleged anger has peaked my curiosity, therefor I think they may have an inside connection or experience to the topic being discussed. THAT GOES FOR ALL SIDES.

I have never raised an adopted child. I have no clue what is involved. Am I curious, absolutely, I gave a child away. I want to know what frustrations they face, what heartbreaks they had to endure. If opened really IS better than closed.

As far as infertile as a whole, I don't think God had as much to do with it as another word that starts with G did. But that's just me. I personally thing we're ALL a social experiment.

I have learned from some well written nicely put answers but they were still to the point. Meaning I didn't have to guess and can concentrate on their point of view. Not everyone has the ability to be so versed.

And what's wrong with telling someone to read. There's tons of information right here in this section from all sides that could probably answer someones questions. If it is suggested that one sticks around and gets to know people, their position, their background, their opinion, it is taken as an insult. You want to know me? READ. My stuff isn't private. You can learn my position, my struggles, my pain, what sets me off, what melts my heart just by reading. If books are recommended, it's not to blow you off, it's because someone read them and thinks it would be helpful.

I know there will always be a feud between AP's, PAP's, first parents, and adoptees who either search or don't feel the need to, but has there really been anyone here who HAS stuck around that didn't actually learn something? I think not.

cmc

For the most part I agree with you. I don't see why anyone needs to be nasty or hateful. It is clear to me that there are people on her with different POVs from mine, and I like that. I won't say I understand them all, but it is good to hear them. One reason I stay here is that I think this group is too harsh on fairly innocent people who ask dumb questions. They probably mean well, and just don't know how their question sounds to others.

magic pointe shoes

Nah. You are whining for unicorn farts. Look at the woman's movement for example. There were all types of personalities involved; there was a range from those who wanted to build a bridge with the opposing side and those who had no patience for ignorance and were loud and mouthy to get their point across to rally more to action.

You are a build a bridge type person. Good for you. Really, I'm not being flippant. We need bridge builders reaching out to those who don't get it.

While you do that, I'll be loud and brash and rally those who do know better to actually speak up. For every time we loudmouths do speak up, have you noticed there will be at least four new questions asking why. Don't tell me that being forceful doesn't have it's advantage... because it does. It takes the rude person to actually start the conversation about the elephant in the room.

The nice thing about the different personalities and their usefulness is that we can move from role to role as our patience wanes and waxes.

I'm not here to be the poster girl of mothers who relinquished for others to learn from. I'm here to not have my voice smothered like those before me have had to suffer most of their lives.

Andraya

To be quite frank I couldn't care less about how nice a person is how misinformed they may be.

Trying to obtain a child online is human trafficking and I will NEVER condone or accept it. I will continue to report such answers and questions and I will never feel any remorse or shame for doing so.

Ignore away. You forget that many of us know how it feels to be adopted, because we are, in fact ADOPTED. I couldn't give a rats hiney if anyone thinks I am unbalanced. My goal isn't to be liked it is to help adoptees, infants, children, teen and adults alike.

Amanda

Totally hope I'm not the newbie you're talking about (I swear I did lots of research!).

But yes, newbies here get completely attacked, and the only reason it's newbies is that anyone that comes here with a different point of view is attacked CONSTANTLY until they don't want to come back.

Asking some questions here, I don't often even get my question answered. People will just use the space to send me hateful things about how horrible I am for wanting to adopt internationally.

I will say, though, that I've found a new friend through here. And that not EVERYONE is horrible. Mei-Ling and I almost complete disagree, however, when she answers one of my questions, she is not rude to me like many of the other people, and because she's not implying I'm an idiot and respectfully disagreeing, I've looked into some of the things she's mentioned and actually LEARNED something.

It's OKAY for people to have different points of view, but I don't think many people on this board feel the same way.

Littlechit

I know what you mean. I got "chewed a new one" because I said something about if I could afford it, I'd go international because this foster care route is for the birds. This person knew we had a relative placement through foster care (we had inquired on several children before getting him) and decided that that would mean that we'd throw our "desperate relative" out on the street. Where that came from I don't have a clue. We'd had certainly take him in regardless of other children we would've had at the time, and now are revisiting a placing a child whose workers were trying to place him a year ago (he's so far away, he may as well be international)

I stopped posting for a while because of that person, and when I returned, it was under a new account (so if I get violated too many times, I don't lose the email account I've been using for six years... but I try to be nice)

School Nurse

Shelly, I agree with all of your points/questions. I like the analogy that someone made about beating someone over the head with a bat to "educate" them about violence. "It just don't work... and it aint gonna work".
No educating going one here. Just the same ol' same ol'.

I've been out of commission for almost 7 weeks due to Hurricane Ike but I can see that nothing has changed at all at yahoo answers adoption forum. Still a lot of in-house fighting going on as far as I can see.
Has anyone been educated?

Indian-vision

Shelly very well said.I have said the same thing long ago.How will attacking people new to adoption change all problems in adoption. It would help if people with an agenda take their cause more seriously and do something and help all expectant mothers about it rather than get vicious with PAP's.
I was new to adoption lingo too.When i was attacked this way i would just turn around and get my defensive mode open rather than listen to a rationale. So instead of telling PAP's they were "meant to be infertile" which is equivalent to saying "you have cancer........geez you were meant to die.......take no treatment !!"
Worst attacks are by PAP's and AP's who forget they were new to this world too some time back.To show their solidarity and understanding to all bio mom's and adoptees they respond hatefully. Yes, they learnt too....the hard way as some say it. But was that necessary in order to learn something? No !!!!! One can be taught too without the nastiness.

Independ"ant"

Considering you think a child adopted from a foreign country should expect to homogenize into your little world and get over their loss is a good thing....you and anyone that thinks like you, deserve frank answers for not doing an ounce of research and/or choosing to ignore/deny the atrocities happening within adoption.

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