Should there be a parental approval process for cases like these?

cantstopLinnyG

I just watched this on NBC. I cannot believe this. Number one- she had SIX children, and lives with her parents, who just filed bankruptcy this past year.

Now, I know this does not mean SHE is bankrupt, but for the love of God- SIX children, a single mother, you live with your mom and dad & you undergo this sort of procedure & then refuse selective reduction???

I blame the medical community as much as I blame her. This is so irresponsible. Yes, there should be some standards here.

Not to mention, the cost to care for a preemie is aprox. $400,000.00. PER CHILD!!! Times eight. Guess who is paying for that???

I am pro-choice, (which to me encompasses all aspects of a woman's reproductive system) but with choice comes responsibility.

Rowan

This is crazy!! why would she want more kids! she has 6! and wheres the father??

bye bye tax dollars...

Randy B

For natural conception methods I don't see a need for it although I think much of the training I had to take as a foster parent would have been of great benefit to anyone looking to get pregnant. As for cases of IVF I do think there should be some sort of process more then just "can you or your insurance pay for this?"

mscrawdad

Yes. The reason PAP's go through the approval process is to educate them about the emotional, financial, and social issues surrounding introducing an adopted child into their home. It would seem reasonable to me that the same approval process should be required for any potential parent bringing a child/children into the home other than through the normal reproductive process.

Due to the obvious need for better parenting skills out there, many schools require students to take parenting classes now. I think that is a great start and long overdue and that is geared toward the normal reproductive process. So, it seems we are already or are in the process of educating potential parents for adoption and normal reproduction, why would we leave out IVF?

So, again, my answer is yes.

yeahright

We had a social worker in our cupboards, looking under beds and checking out what was in the glove box of our cars. I also agree that the counseling, reading guides and classes we went through as PAPS actually WOULD have been great training before we had our natural born son.

But there is no feasible way that a single mother (who lives with her parents) can raise 14 children. Can she have 14 children? yes. Should have been allowed to use medically invasive procedures to do so, well.....that doctor needs some ethics training.

And you are soooo right...I saw the interview. The fam seemed....very very off.

Jackie B

Very sticky situation. When I found out about the other 6 children, I was beyond stunned. I don't think anyone can tell a couple how many kids they should have. You can use the Duggars as an example, but all of their children were conceived without fertility drugs. I'm wondering about the ethics of the clinic they were going to.

I can't say what other clinics do, but this is how it has been explained to me by my doctors (2 different practices) and also in books. If doing IVF, they would harvest all mature eggs and if any became fertilized and matured to embryos, depending on age, only 2-3 would be placed in uterus (with the rest being frozen for later use, embryo adoption or donated to research). This limits how many babies you'll end up having if pregnancy is successful. The embryos would be past the point of splitting into identical twins. You will have nothing more than triplets.

If ovulation induction is done and insemination is planned, the procedure will be cancelled in the event that more than 4 mature follicles form. If all four were fertilized and implant, you would have 4, maybe if all of them split into identical twins, you'd have 8. Highly unlikely though.

If the insemination is cancelled, the couple will be discouraged from trying to conceive on their own, but I'm sure many will still try.

My theory is she had ovulation induced and the babies were conceived natually against medical advice. I have read she was advised to also reduce the number of babies for a better outcome. She did not do selective reduction. I could be wrong about the scenario, but based on what I've read, I think this is the most probable situation.

I think this couple does fertility treatments a huge disservice to the couples who undergo treatment responsibly.

If the babies were conceived through 8 seperate embryos through IVF, the clinic needs to be investigated for unethical practices. I also think a woman with 6 children already should be discouraged from using fertiililty treatments to conceive even more children. They should not have gotten treatment in the first place. I'd like to think most clinics run their practices ethically and hate to think their clinic was out for the money. It's abuse of infertility treatment.

I don't know that I'd say there should an approval process done, I think treatment should not have been considered AT ALL. Obviously, I don't have a problem with fertility treatments, but in this case, no one was thinking of what the outcome could be. All these babies will need special care for a long time and the older 6 children are going to suffer because I don't care how much help you may have, they are not going to get the individual attention that they need from their parents and neither will the babies.

I hope most people who do fertility treatments do NOT condone these kind of unethical practices. I don't. This whole thing gives fertility treatment a bad name. This kind of mindset also gives those considering adoption a bad name too.

ETA: Independant

Most insurances DO NOT cover IVF. Those that do impose limitations http://www.fertilitylifelines.com/paying/insurance/statemandate.jsp

Sherri Shepherd made a good point on "The View" that if more insurance companies did cover IVF, you would see LESS of these higher order multiple births because the number of embryos that are transferred are controlled. It's far cheaper to pay for one cycle of IVF (10-15K) than it is to treat a premature multiple in the NICU and beyond.

ETA 2: The more details I hear, the worse this is getting. A single mom living with her parents? Small house, bankrupt? Other kids 8 and younger? This makes me SICK.

Independ"ant"

IVF in general goes against the pro life doctrines........I found it very odd that she was conveniently using Pro life an excuse when her doctors were advising her that it is dangerous and irresponsible to implant all 8.

Something is odd about that entire family....its great that her parents are going to try to help her but there is something wrong with them as well. Grandpa in front of his house was telling the media today that he has a big mansion hidden from everyone that they will be living in and nobody will find out where. Sorry but Grandpa is either getting a handout (which wouldn't surprise me....the hospital/s providing IVF have to cover their cash cow from bad media) or he is just delusional.

I find it odd that many insurance plans covers IVF but discriminate against natural pregnancies.

kristysearching

DCFS takes children all the time from women they feel place their children at risk, while I am not saying she qualifies as unfit, one might question her motives.

Is she looking for a reality tv show?

Crucio

I really donâ€™t even get this to be honest. This woman was relatively young (33) , has 6 children who I can only assume were created the naturally way. Why did she need to even do IVF a process that is known for creating multiply babies, she was clearly not infertile. Itâ€™s not even known if she is even employed. 14 children all under the age of 8 years old. If the parents filed for bankruptcy how can they have a mansion somewhere no one will ever know where it is?

Yes having multiple children was quite common in days gone by but generally if someone had multiples the natural way it typical wasnâ€™t beyond Quads (4) and even natural quads was/is rare. People probably shouldnâ€™t implant more then 3 embryos, having twins is pushing it the womb is not meant to carry a litter of children. In fact I donâ€™t think people who clearly are not infertile should even be allowed to due IVF.

I heard the father is going back to Iraq but maybe it was the grandfather.

Its just like that Egyptian couple who already had three daughters but wanted a son but were to impatient and felt they needed to do IVF and ended up with 7 babies, and the mom was only 27 , I think the dad was around 28 or 29

Jennifer L

This is a good question. There are other medical procedures where some form of psychiatric testing can be used before a doctor agrees to do the procedure. Bariatric surgery comes to mind. Sometimes, it's required before sterilization surgeries as well.

I didn't think that doctors were implanting more than 2-3 embryos at a time anymore. There is always an off chance that an embryo can divide into identical twins, but then, just because 3 embryos are implanted doesn't mean that all 3 will adhere to the uterine wall.

I think that with the precedents set by other medical procedures having a mandatory session with a counselor wouldn't be a bad idea.

Robin

We don't yet know if this woman had embryos implanted or used FSH injections that may have caused several eggs to be released at one time. Could she have gone to Mexico for fertility treatments?

One thing not mentioned is the possibility that all eight children will very likely have disabilities, which makes it quite possible that mom will collect SSDI or disability payments for all 8 children. Plus, they'll likely require early intervention, occupational, speech & ? therapy, special education.

Sherrie Sheppard (The View) said that while insurance doesn't pay for IVF, it paid $1 million in care for her son's stay in the NICU unit. Does that mean it could cost as much as $8 million for these little ones?

It is no one's business how many children some one else chooses to have. But when you have no way of taking care of your family...and have no intention of ever having a way to take care of them but expect public assistance to provide support permanently...?

The ethics of it all makes my brain hurt! Many of the issues I have with this have already been mentioned. This is another example of what an adult wants over what's in the best interest of the children, IMHO.

VERY DISTURBING!

monkeykitty83

While in general I don't think parents should have to "prove" themselves "worthy" of the children they conceive-- they should be assumed worthy of their own children unless their actions show otherwise-- IVF is a different thing.

IVF is an invasive medical procedure with huge psychological and emotional ramifications. It affects the mother herself, and also the relationship with her partner if she has one.

Before this medical procedure is done, I think that all parties involved in the conception should undergo psychological screening to make sure they're in a place to handle it emotionally, and that they're prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood. Other medical procedures are not done unless the patient is well enough... and IVF should be no exception. Health isn't just about the body. It's important for the parent(s) to be healthy, and be bringing the child into a safe situation.

I do think psychological evaluation is needed before invasive fertility treatments, because it has huge emotional impacts whether or not it's successful.

MamaKate

Hi. I am truly stumped by this one! I agree with much of what Linny said.

This brings up all kinds of ethical, financial and welfare questions and until we know more it is hard to truly tell what to think.

My initial impression is a real concern for the level of care these children will be receiving. I tend to worry about these things with especially large families where many of the children are close or the same in age (The Duggers, The Gosslins, The Jolie-Pitts, etc.) I am concerned that the individual children don't get the personalized care they need to the extent they really need it. When older children end up being responsible for their siblings. I know it CAN work and it was common in the past (but that was a different time and is unfair to apply for comparison although it did have issues even then) BUT in today's world I'm not sure that it works terrible well - especially given situations like this one.

As far as the IVF aspect, I agree that it was irresponsible and medically risky of both the mother and the Dr.s involved. As has been discussed in several different forums for the last few days, this case brings up all kind of issues about responsibility in bio-ethics. This kind of medical risk was dangerous to both the mother and the babies. She was in the hospital for 7-8 wks PRIOR to delivery (who was caring for the other 6?) The babies might have some issues related to their prematurity. This case required special staffing and strain on the hospital. The mother is 33 (my age!) and medical guide lines discourage this many implants - I am just really confused as to how this even occurred. She doesn't seem to have even needed treatments for fertility issues and I feel like we need more info here. (!?)

If this family can provide well for these children (ALL 14) then that's great but the amount of money spent on this (if tax payers end up footing the bill) could easily have been used to help MULTIPLE other families and this could very well cause issues with insurance companies and their policies. The whole thing just seems poorly thought out and I am really curious as to what the story is.

Sorry, I got off on a bit of a rant - I am thoroughly intrigued as to what will happen here and tremendously concerned for the children. :)

I do think there need to be some LEGAL (instead of industry) guidelines that should be followed as to the limit of babies who can be conceived at one time through IVF - there's not really a comparison with regular conception - natural multiple births of more than 3 are incredibly rare. I hesitate to suggest that we limit the number of children people can have in total (CHINA...) especially if there is no neglect or abuse present but I do think that the welfare of the potential child(ren) should be of utmost concern and PURPOSELY carrying more than a certain number of fetuses at one time seems negligent.

This whole thing makes my head spin!

Somebody

I think that doctor should be questioned on ethics here. That woman had a history of multiples. Although it's not likely that all eight embryos would take, it's possible. To implant that many is irresponsible and unethical in my opinion. She has a right to have as many as she wants but I think the doctor made a bad decision when agreeing to implant her with eight embryos given her history and number of children already.

I think adoption should be less expensive but that the standards are not too high at all.
I think a woman's financial, emotional, and physical situation should be taken into consideration before allowing fertility treatments. I know it might seem unfair to deny a woman the right to have a child but in this case she already had 6, it's not like she was childless.

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