Should schools have the right to ask if children are illegal?

Tucson Region

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/290558

Sheriffs: Are you in school legally?
By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.28.2009
PHOENIX — Some border county sheriffs want Arizona schools to start asking students whether they're in this country legally.
Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik originated the idea and said millions of dollars in Arizona taxes go to teach English to children who have no legal right to be here. He also said there's a link involving illegal immigration, social problems and gangs.
Only thing is, a 1982 U.S. Supreme Court decision appears to make it illegal for school officials to ask. In a 5-4 decision, the justices overturned a Texas law that authorized school districts to refuse to enroll anyone who couldn't prove legal residence.
But Dupnik said it may be time for Arizona to have a test case to put the issue back before the high court — to see if the current justices agree.
Dupnik has the backing of Yuma County Sheriff Ralph Ogden and Joe Arpaio, his Maricopa County counterpart. And Gov. Jan Brewer said she sees no reason why youngsters shouldn't be asked to prove they are U.S. citizens or legal residents.
"When I grew up, when I went to school, when I moved from Nevada to California, I had to bring my birth certificate to prove I was a citizen," she said.
But Attorney General Terry Goddard said he doesn't think schools have the expertise to determine legal status. And state Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Horne said he believes the federal government should just do a better job of protecting the border.
"But as long as kids are here, they should be in school," he said. "You don't want them on the street corner."
Dupnik, however, has an answer for that: Have schools report their findings to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
"They would identify the people that are here illegally by the thousands and send them back, kids and parents," he said.
The issue has financial implications: The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 60,000 to 65,000 of the 1.2 million youngsters in Arizona schools are not in this country legally.
The Department of Education figures basic state aid for students is about $6,000 a year, not counting what the state pays for school construction. That puts the price tag near $390 million — minus, of course, any taxes from illegal residents that go toward education funding.
But that doesn't count the extra $360 per student Arizona now gives to schools to help English-language learners. Assuming two-thirds of these students fit that category, that adds $15 million to the tab.
In 1982, however, the Supreme Court voided a 1975 Texas law that denied state aid to districts for children not "legally admitted" into the United States. That law also allowed districts to deny admission to those students.
Attorneys for Texas argued that the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which entitles every person to equal protection of law, doesn't apply to those not in the country legally.
"We reject this argument," Justice William Brennan wrote for the majority. "Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is surely a 'person' in any ordinary sense of the term." And Brennan said education is the only way people can advance themselves.
Tucson-area education leaders were hardly supportive of the sheriffs' idea.
"Our function is not immigration, but to provide a quality education to kids who live in our district or who come in under open enrollment," said Nicholas Clement, superintendent of the Flowing Wells Unified School District.
He said it could invite new problems for schools, envisioning the need to hire additional staffers, order additional training and make difficult decisions on what kinds of documentation would be acceptable.
Additional Details
the only reason whole article was not posted was length, there is no solicitation because this is just an article I came upon. I do not belong to this site .

Joe C

YES!

You need documentation (birth certificate, immigration papers, green card, etc.) to register in public schools. If you are a legal immigrant then there is no problem. Illegal immigrants do not have documentation or it is falsified.

All public schools along with all government agencies that knowingly have information of illegal immigrants must report it to ICE. ICE will come and deport them. If these government agencies do not do it they are breaking the law and must be punished. If that means putting a judge, governor, police officer, school administrator, mayor, or teacher in jail then so be it. They are not above the law.

All non-US Citizens must get permission to enter the United States from the US Government, according to US Code 8. And all government agencies, including public schools, must uphold all US laws. They took an oath to uphold the laws of the United States against foreign and domestic enemies and ended it with a â€œSo help me Godâ€ clause.

This 1982 U.S. Supreme Court decision that made it illegal for school officials to ask students to prove legal residence is simply wrong. What the U.S. Supreme Court did was illegal because US Code 8 was not removed. You cannot have it both ways.

ICE cannot be everywhere so they are going to have to rely on the local police and other government officials to be the first responders in upholding the law. How can you determine if someone is an illegal immigrant if you cannot at least check that personâ€™s documentation to see if he or she is legitimate?

As for all education officials in this country, their primary function is to provide a quality education to children. But this ONLY applies to US citizens and legal immigrants. No school in the United States has the authority to let illegal immigrants register. If any school does then it is breaking the law.

The ones who should be blamed are the illegal immigrant parents. They callously put their children in harms way with no consideration for their childrenâ€™s future.

I feel sorry for the children because they become victims of their parentsâ€™ mistakes. Children do not know better. However, this is still no excuse to break the law.

If you really want to be humanitarian about this issue then tell these illegal immigrants not to have children.

Additional Comments: You are correct that school officials are not ICE. School officials do not have to process illegal immigrants or detain them. ICE and the police will do that. But school officials cannot let children in without proper documentation. That means if the documentation looks suspicious then ICE should be called in. If you are a legal immigrant then you have permission to live in this country and have proper documentation. Illegal immigrants are not supposed to be in this country. Please tell me how a child can enter any public school in the southwest without any documentation? I would like to know because the last time I registered my child, I had to a provide birth certificate, proof of employment, etc.

If the cops stop you and ask for identification then you show it. If you feel you were abused by the cops then you can follow it up later through legal action. But the cops do have the authority to check your legal status. How are illegal immigrants going to be caught? Illegal immigrants are breaking the law. What is it about US Code 8 you do not understand?

Admit it, the US Supreme Court made a big mistake in 1982.

Saaski

What part of illegal do you not get? Illegal means they shouldn't be here, they didn't come legally. I do feel sorry for the kids who have to suffer just because their parents did something wrong, but on the other hand, that is tax money that should be spent on disadvantaged American children. Charity begins at home.

gov. of, by and for the sheep

Please call 1-866-DHS-2-ICE to report immigration or customs violations

legal lover :)

Yes

Sweetharttt

Sure. Why not ask? The little illegal aliens know that they are illegal.

Sasori

Yes, and I REALLY hope they follow through with this. US taxpayers should not be forced to pay (through fed taxes & property taxes) for the education of children here illegally.

Shane

Yes, of course the liberal douche bag, Justice Brennen, disagreed. Why should we be educating illegal aliens? They can not work here, and it is costing us billions of dollars to educate them. Most of them qualify for free breakfastes and lunches at school too.

there is another issue. Thousands of Mexican children cross the border every day to get educated at "gringo" schools in America every day. the schools have a right to determine if the children attending their schools are living in the school district. We must stop educating Mexicans and spend those precious resources educating Americans and legal immigrants.

If we keep spending tens of billions of dollars in free benefits to illegal aliens, those here will stay and more will come.

Joel W

YES. Things are getting bad for everyone in this mess, and just educating American Students is going to be very expensive. We hardly need to educate people whom were sent across the border to cheat the American People.

Yes and they should be able to check the citizenship of the people going to the schools with E Verify.

Philip H

It is a DUTY to question those violating the laws.
Seal the borders NOW.
It is important for the health of US citizens!

â–ªÏŽhiteÄÄ±rlâ–ªÂ®

Yes, definitely.

Judy B

Person in the 14th meant citizens. Because our forefathers did not have to deal with the problems of today and did not have the for site to see the problems. If you have kids in the American free public school,
that is a joke, the classes are dumbed down to help the NON-English speaking kids up to date. In my area the classes are over crowded, books are used, not new, field trips are cancelled, sports cancelled or cut back, music and art classes cut back all the fun things that go with school. We needed past school records when moving from one district to another. Where are the NON-English speaking kids records? we also needed medical records from the medical office to show that all shots and tests had been taken care of, before entering a new school. Why are these kids allowed to skirt these requirements?

Loretta C

when i was in school we had to provide a proof of address, birth record and social security card. it needs to be the same with them. we have our law.

Suze

The act of being illegal is unacceptable. The USA must secure its borders. These illegal children benefit from being illegal. They will lie if asked.
USA has every right in the world to know if the people they educate freely belong here. My tax dollars must only go to support MY country Citizens. This is my home, not theirs.

The principle doesn't get any more simple than that. It is not the job of the American taxpayer to fund the food, clothing, housing, education and free medical care for all the unhappy 3rd world inhabitants of the world. Otherwise they will take advantage of the USA forever and it will never end. You just cannot take what others have because you want what they have.

Thomasina Paine

Yes - but they would just create more fake documents.

foaagain

i think the supreme court ruling contradicts
our federal laws about illegals
dont tell me no humans are illegal
this is not racist this is the border integrity of our country
go for it

Lucero

I feel sorry for the children, since it is not their fault that they are here, but there is no way I could go to another country without the proper documents and sign my children up to their public schools. The public schools should have to collect the proper documents, just as employers should. If parents know they must show the right documents they will not take their children to be registered. This will stop some of the illegals because not all of them have falsified documents. The ones that are falsifying legal documents will put themselves and their children in further risk. The schools would not have to police anybody. If someone does not submit the right documents they are just not admitted.

It is constitutional to ask children if they are illegal to attend school, but only if the Federal Government passes a law authorizing it.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the feds get great deference in dealing with immigration, but states get virtually zero. So it can happen if you want it, but only if you get Congress to act which seems rather unlikely at the moment.

COWBOY32

of coarse NOT

BIG PETER

NO

they are there to teach, not enforce immigration law. What next? have every Walmart greeter ask for immigration status to?

Precious Love

they shouldn't have the right to ask the kids are they illegal but should have the parents are they citizens or not

Luchador

you're always on here calling them 'stup*d', and now you want to deny them an education. the answer is NO.

Gonna Prevent Another Riot2

NO
NO
NO

Nachooooh!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Chief Whachusa

Should schools have the right to remove students who has little to no motivation? They like illegal children take up seats better suited for learning students.

This may have be good if the rest of the article which is non supporting of the issue was not left out, read on.

"Sheriffs: Are you in school legally?" (end of article only)
By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.28.2009

"Eva Dong, a Sunnyside Unified School District board member, agreed. "The federal law given to us by the U.S. Supreme Court states that we are not, as a school entity, to be out there asking the students if they are here legally or illegally," she said.
"Let's face it: The little ones, how are they going to answer that? Even the older students may not know the answer," she said. "The sheriffs want us to go up against the law so they can get their test case. I am surprised they are asking us to go up against the law."
Not all Arizona border sheriffs support the idea.
Santa Cruz County Sheriff Tony Estrada said schools shouldn't be in the business of asking students their immigration status. And he said he sees that as a first step toward having other state and local public employees also doing the same thing, including his own officers.
"We can't afford it," he said.
The Pew report estimates there are another 100,000 to 110,000 youngsters in Arizona schools who are the children of illegal immigrants but were born in this country. That makes them citizens who would be unaffected by any reversal of the 1982 Supreme Court ruling.
Even if Arizona is successful in persuading the high court to overturn its 1982 decision, that may not end the debate.
Four years earlier, state Attorney General Jack LaSota issued a formal legal opinion saying the only inquiry school officials can make of parents who want to enroll their children is whether they are Arizona residents.
On StarNet: Should sheriff's deputies have the right to ask students whether they're in the country legally? Vote in a poll in the online version of this story at azstarnet . com/border"

It closes with a invitation to vote does that make this question a solicitation for a vote?

It appears to me that Howard Fischer wrote this quoting a different article.

"He also said there's a link involving illegal immigration, social problems and gangs. "
Although Mr. Fischer does not show when or where this link is I found this.
"Dupnik: America 'catering to illegals" (in parts only)
By Brady McCombs
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 04.29.2009
""Whether you are talking about school performance, or dropouts, or gang affiliation, or one-parent homes or poverty, you name the social problem, that's where they are all concentrated," said Dupnik on April 21 in an interview with the Arizona Daily Star for a separate border-related story. "That has to do with illegal immigration."
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/fromcomments/290712.php

Only I can not research back more than a week without registering with the azstarnet, maybe this is solicitation.

It was also said in the above link by Sheriff Dupnik "We are not going into classrooms, into schools looking for illegal students," Dupnik said. "I find that thought repugnant and repulsive. We will never do that as long as I happen to be the sheriff here."

And there was also
"Dupnik singled out the Sunnyside School District in South Tucson where he says a credible source told him one in four students are here illegally.
Sunnyside officials don't know where Dupnik is getting his information, said spokeswoman Monique Soria.
Law dictates that they don't ask students' status so they don't know, she said.
Dupnik's latest comments surprised and disappointed U.S. Rep. RaÃºl Grijalva, D-Ariz., who has known him for at least 20 years.
Calling the South Side the epicenter of all social problems is inflammatory and makes Dupnik look like "Arpaio light," said Grijalva in reference to Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio."

"Dupnik said his position on illegal immigrants has not changed over time, but his position on schools apparently has in the last 13 years.
In a 1996 Arizona Daily Star article about pending legislation that would have allowed states to charge illegal immigrants tuition to attend public schools or be subject to deportation, he said:
"Any legislation that would remove children from schools is a grave concern to us. This country needs to do more to protect its borders. But they need to do it in a humanitarian, logical way. Not allowing children to go to school isn't the logical answer."

In reading the above article (Dupnik: America 'catering to illegals') that I believe Mr. Fischer used only selected parts as a base/source for writing his own opinionated article.

GreasyTony

NO! teachers and their staff are not ICE or Border Patrol Agents. They are there to teach everyone! and their parents pay well enough in taxes to cover the cost to.

Immigrants have the right to remain silent about their immigration status, but many don't know. Maybe we should get the word out?

http://www.lanl.gov/worklife/newhires/prepare/international.shtml
Your Right to Remain Silent: All foreign nationals are required to carry proof of their status upon them at all times. If you are a permanent resident, this may be shown by your alien registration receipt card (commonly known as a "green card"), or your passport may also indicate your legal status. If you are a non-immigrant alien, you have an arrival-departure card (I-94 card), a notation in your passport, and/or other proof of your status from the INS.

If you are stopped or detained on the street, and either do not have your documents on you, or are an undocumented alien, you have the right to remain silent about your immigration status. There is no need to show any document.

Your Right to Send Your Children to Public Schools: All children deserve an education. A U.S. court case in Texas upheld the obligation of public schools to admit all children, regardless of their immigration status. Public schools should not ask for your or your children's immigration status, and generally do not ask.

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