Joe Horn? Was he defending and protecting himself, or is it murder?

Solita

he was totally justified and I think he will be NOT charged here in Texas..we are sick of thugs breaking into our homes to steal and sell the items to buy drugs...these guys are now off the street so they can't threaten, intimidate, rob, steal or rape, harass anyone else....I support Joe Horn and any decent citizen should!

dluv1126

I have heard of this. The only problem I have with this is the 911 recording where he seems anxious about going out and shooting them. I understand that the criminals were not selling cookies at his neighbors and should have been apprehended, but I don't think that justifies killing them. I think that he has a right to protect his neighborhood from thieves and criminals and he may have even had the right to brandish a gun for protection purposes while trying to detain the suspects until the police got there, but actually going out there and shooting to kill if the thieves represented no danger to him is manslaughter.

Now, also I think that everyone needs to let the justice system take its course and get out of trying to lobby for a verdict in this case. No amount of protests or lop-sided news reporting should sway the jury in this case. Instead, we need to put our faith in the justice system and let 12 people in his community decide whether what he did was up to their community standards or not. If they decide that what he did was justified, then clearly they want the rest of the nation to know that they are authorizing their citizens to shoot criminals caught in the act. If they decide that he is guilty, then they are setting the standard that their citizens must show restraint while policing their neighborhood.

KyLoveChick

Just listened to this story on the news. To me it was not clear if the men were escaping or threatening Mr. Horn.

I served on a jury once on a case similar to this. The judge made it very clear to be considered self defense, the man that fired the shots had to be in fear for his life. The man that was killed had also fired his gun but he turned and was running away. He was shot in the back. Because he was fleeing, his killer was convicted of manslaughter.

This case may very well go to trial for a jury to decide.

Angel Of Death

What I do know is this,I for one am glad he did it whether he was within the letter of the law or not. Just how much free reign do we have to give thugs before we decide we aren't going to allow them to mess with decent people anymore. I know I would have confronted them too,this **** has got to stop eventually,and now is as good a time as any. And we didn't lose anything useful to us through the deaths of these two,one less burden on society,good riddance!!

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Kiker

I hear you about people writing novels in a matter of minutes...its like they have access to some software i am not aware of...its kind creepy.
As for this situation, while I am all for shooting criminals (multiple times with the sole intention of incapaciation) I cannot see if there was cause here. If the suspects were entering his residence, and he shot them...not a problem. If they entered, saw it was occupied and attempted to flee...then not a real just cause to open fire.
So, without the full facts of the situation, i would say that the only cause to pop rounds into people is when they are on your property and are not looking to leave (this also works for holidays, when distant relatives won't leave)

Emily

Well, since they have the 'king of castle' law in Texas, if he was feeling ownership of his neighbors house in their absence, he may be 'innocent'. The whole case seems kind of sad though. He did what he thought was right but I don't think he's happy about it.

The man is a HERO!!!!

We need more people like Joe Horn.

elle

he was protecting himself

bootedbylibsx2

In my opinion, it was justified. Maybe some of these bums will think twice before they decide to break the law.

misskate12001

The guys were robbing a neighbors house. Mr. Horn was safe inside is house, calling and reporting the crime. And that's as far as Mr. Horn got in handling the situation properly.

His life was not in danger and no property is worth killing a person over. His neighbors were not home, their lives were not in danger.

Mr. Horn, after repeatedly ignoring the 911 operators advice to stay inside safe became a cold blooded murderer when he ****** the gun and killed those two guys.

Police taking their sweet time? By the time he shot the guys, it had only been 5 minutes and again - no one's life was in danger, only property. If you read and listen to the 911 call, this man was not thinking reasonably, admits he put himself into harms way and clearly is excited about the thought of being a vigilante.

(CBS) The 911 call came from a Pasadena, Tex., resident, who alerted police to two burglary suspects on a neighbor's property. Before he hung up, two men were dead by his hand.

Joe Horn, 61, told the dispatcher what he intended to do: Walk out his front door with a shotgun.

"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.

"Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this ----."

Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street.

"I donâ€™t know if theyâ€™re armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood."

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and donâ€™t go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?"

"I donâ€™t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?

"No, I donâ€™t want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there."

The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.

Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.

"I canâ€™t see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said.

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesnâ€™t know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said.

Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"

Horn: "Yes?"

Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Dispatcher: "I understand."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Dispatcher: "I'm ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this ----. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house."

Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy."

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Dispatcher: "Stay in the house."

Horn: "There, one of them's getting away!

Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it."

Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."

On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being ****** and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being ****** and fired again, and then again.

Then Horn is back on the phone:

"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"

Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"

Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?

Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."

Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"

Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."

Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."

Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."

Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."

Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?

Horn: "No, no, no."

Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."

Yelling is heard.

Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."

Two days later, Horn released a statement through an attorney.

â€œThe events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life," it said. "My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased.â€

The identities of the men killed were released Friday.

They are Miguel Antonio Dejesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30. Official records show that each of them had a prior arrest in Harris County for drug offenses.

The men were reportedly shot at a distance of less than 15 feet.

A woman who lives nearby who asked not to be identified told CBS News affiliate KHOU correspondent Rucks Russell that she always saw Horn as a grandfather figure. "He is the guardian of the neighborhood," she said. "He takes care of all our kids. If we ever need anything, we call him.â€

But according to Tom Lambright, Hornâ€™s attorney and a friend for more than four decades, heâ€™s the one in need now. â€œHe just needs everyone to know heâ€™s not a villain, heâ€™s not a bad guy,â€ Lambright said.

He went on to say that Horn voluntarily gave an extensive video statement to police immediately following the shooting.

Horn was not taken into custody after the shooting. A Harris County grand jury will decide if charges are to be filed.

Lambright says Horn acted in complete and total self defense and has nothing to hide.

Local opinion has been passionate on both sides of the shooting.

One letter to the Houston Chronicle said, "He didn't shoot them in the legs, to make sure they did not run away, or hold them at gunpoint until police arrived. No, he was judge, jury and executioner."

Another letter writer praised Horn, saying, "Where does the line form to pin a medal on Joe Horn? I want to get in line." Another wrote, "Let's get rid of the police force and just hire Joe Horn!"

Support for Horn was also running about 2-1 in an online survey of readers on the KHOU Web site.

The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

zigkitsune

While they are in his house, legal. I believe the same goes for trespassing on property. Off property, murder.

Dave C

He was doing the right thing ... defending himself and his neighbor's property from career criminals. Horn did the right thing, the stupid mexican criminals got what they deserved.

papyrusbtl

If it's in Texas, and during the night-time, it's serious business, and lots of people have the right to shoot and kill.
A critical fact is if it happened during the day, or at night.
If someone is trying to steal your car at night, you have the right to shoot them dead. (a throwback to horse-thievery).

Dan H

Not sure about the specifics of Texas law, but generally, you cannot kill a person for invading or threatening your property.

You can, however, use deadly force to protect yourself and/or others from physical - deadly harm and you can protect your home with the same force. Big caveat here, a person on your land is not invading your home. A person inside your home is. A person trying to break down your door isn't. A person who has broken down your door and entered your home has.

laughter_every_day

You didn't mention any danger to him. If the men were unarmed and leaving and not trying to attack him, then it is probably an unlawful homicide. Using deadly force is allowed to protect yourself but it is not available any more to stop a fleeing felon unless that felon presents an immediate threat to someone else. As I understand it, he told the dispatcher he intended to shoot the men to stop them from leaving the neighbor's home, not to prevent any harm. That being said, the local DA has he authority to decide that no charges are warranted. That decision will turn on the politics of the area.

enviroman

He was defending his neighbors house. No, it's not a crime. Only Libs, Dems & Trial Lawyers (Like John Edwards) would see it as a crime since they prefer criminals to law-abiding citizens. Besides, he used a GUN! And we know we can't have that!!!

Eric.

NO self Defense JOe Horn is a football player

Mencken

Murder

pantagruel

Ok here goes.... A man looks out the window,sees two men that he's never seen before, carrying things from the neighbors house. He goes outside the safety of his house to confront the two men with his shotgun. He yells ,then shoots both dead. But wait ,what the shooter didn't know,was those two guys were distant relatives of the neighbor, that showed up to get belongings that were being stored there! Whooops!
That's a bit different than this case. Mr. Horn was not in any danger,and while on the phone to 911,he was told repeatedly NOT to go out! He did, and committed cold blooded murder! If you use his 'logic' to explain the murder,then it sounds like a person could shoot anybody that they thought was committing any kind of crime. So if you come out of your house,and this crazy fool thinks that you have just committed some sort of crime, your DEAD! That is why we have police! They're TRAINED to resond to dangerous situations. What if that shooter had missed,and killed the neighbors kid? What if the cops had shown up,and shot Mr. Horn for carrying the gun? The guy is the perfect representation of a neo-con! All that crap that O'Riley spews about going after the illegals and such. All that hate warps people judgment! It's disgusting how Fox News is reporting on this. They obviously take the side of Mr. Horn and his supporters. No real mention of the details of the law ,or why it might not be a good idea to start shooting people in your neighbors yard. The same thing is being debated about having teachers and students be allowed to carry concealed weapons in school. Is that gonna work? A free-for-all shoot out in the hallway ? If Mr. doesnt fry for what he did,then the rule of law will be OVER in America! Then there will be more of this kind of murder,until there is a civil war or something to restore the constitutional rule of law!

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